the beautiful world: When different cultures collide and questions are born: the issue of the muslim veil

Friday, October 21, 2011

When different cultures collide and questions are born: the issue of the muslim veil

9:55 PM | Posted by foxy lady |

Veil to silence by Sea Fairy on deviantart

When properly used, Facebook is a great source of inspiration. Some days ago, there was a post in a Women's Right page on fb with the following question:

Why is it that when a christian woman veils herself, it resample respect, and every one says it is just her personal behavior, -all she must accept is her religion's commands- but with muslim womens it is retrograde behavior?

That's what motivated me to write this post. I can't wait to hear your opinion on the issue as well. After the link are the main arguments that form my opinion on this subject.

1. The muslim veil is something worn by everyday people in everyday life. Veil in christianity is worn only by the ones that have chosen to retreat to a secluded place away from society.

2. The muslim veil is said to be "for the protection of women." In reality, it camouflages behind it not only a state dominated by religion but also a state ruled by men who, according to the Qur'an, have the power to treat women unequally and abuse them - it is a symbol of oppression and 'slavedom', of not being able to take decisions for your own life and handle your body the way you want to; on the other hand, the christian veil is associated with the nuns that want to show respect to God- there isn't a single argument in Christianity that men are allowed to stone women or treat them badly.

3. Lastly, the reason why I don't believe the Muslim women who argue that it is their choice to wear the veil, is because I myself denied for several years that I was oppressed by my father. No one wishes to admit that (s)he is hurt, because it is so damn painful to your 'self.' But when you have come to make that confession and you have recognized reality, it is agonizing to know you must do something about it. Our bodies aren't sinful. Beauty is not a sin. Finding pleasure isn't a sin either, yet I have the impression that women in Islam, especially in far away locations, are deprived of the right to show their physical beauty and are denied of any pleasure. Having to refuse indulging in pleasures (within a logical frame) does not make one holy- it makes one a masochist.

the image used in FB for the said question

I can't deny the fact that there might be spiritually free muslim women that wear such clothing. And women who don't wear such clothes, yet they are dominated by men, also exist. But here we talk about a group's mentality, its meaning and the way it is symbolized.

There was an answer from a lesbian group that was along the lines 'it's none of your business what women do in other parts of the world'. I say that if we follow her beliefs, we shouldn't care for lesbian rights in other countries either. Plus who doesn't know this famous quote:

First they came for the communists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left to speak out for me.

And things turn uglier and uglier. The latter topic attracts great interest lately and muslim women might be allowed to drive a car from now on. Still... things like this might appear irrelevant, yet it is associated to my post's subject, because headwear of any kind serves as notifier of a muslim, while the lack of it as a notifier of a non-muslim, thus putting in danger the lives of the non-muslim.

One more argument against veils, in particular face-covering ones, come from the blog File not Found.

Here is another argument about niqab. We should not forget: although the eyes are the windows of the soul, the expression of feelings is done by the whole face. Eyes are usually not adequate to let someone recognize another person as a unique individual.

I'm sorry that I can't believe you. Try convincing me otherwise.

I must add something important: some years ago, I could not see why some states in Europe wanted to forbid muslim women to wear the veil. Last year I went on a two-month trip to Germany and my views changed completely, especially due to the presense of niqab-clad women, covered in black from top to bottom. On some cases there wore black sunglasses too. A dark ghost walking around the streets- actually not just one. That was pretty scary. I also learned that when you travel to some muslim countries you have "to wear the traditional covering clothes, even as a tourist or a non-muslim immigrant. If the saying "when in Rome, do as the Romans do" applies to us in their countries, why can it not apply to them in our countries?

In a history lesson given last year, a professor of mine stated the problem very well: multiculturalism is everywhere. We accept different languages and different nationalities- they are a living part of Europe. But these (language, nationality) are things that unite us; if they are no longer there, we should find something else in common. That bonding element is our values. In western countries individuality, the emancipation of women and the separation of state and church are central values. Thus we must support them, at all costs.

Am I Islamophobic? Perhaps...My answer is similar to this one. If I'm being unfair, give me a reason not to be scared of Islam.

The more a society requires its respectable women to keep their bodies covered, the more likely those women are to be oppressed. ~ Eristotle

P.S.: For those who want to learn more about the different types of veil, BBC provides a good introduction. It also explains extensively what hijab is, where is it stated in Qur'an, misinterpretations, rules for men, etc.

Just in case someone misunderstands, let me explain myself: what I consider bad and illogical for women, I do for all. Yet women are always steps away from being as free as men and that is why I have dedicated this post to them.

Labels: feminism, veil

6 comments:

snippettee said...: "Am I Islamophobic? Perhaps...My answer is similar to this one. If I'm being unfair, give me a reason not to be scared of Islam."

I guess one of the reasons why you shouldn’t be scared of Islam is for some women veil is used to adapt places strategically. Also, because veiling has been deeply embedded into ones worldview, once it has been removed then apparently one’s worldview will be threatened as well. For instance, some Muslim women chose to veil because it’s already part of their identity and it plays an integral role for self-worth and acceptance—because for them, that’s who they are regardless of whatever reasons they have.

I, too, don’t understand these complexities, but I guess I have no choice but to respect those women who chose to veil. But at the same time, they should also respect how I view veiling. So, do I find women who veil oppressed? To be honest in some cases, yes (rooting mainly from politically and historically patriarchal society). However, I’m aware that my reasoning doesn’t apply to everyone. I know some Muslim women who chose to veil even though they have the option not to do so because for them taking out their veils means wearing out who they really are.

Of course, there are places which demand veiling to be respected. That’s why I also believe that countries which choose not integrate veiling should also be respected and preserve what they believe as well. Actually, I am living in a very multicultural country however I don’t fully agree with multiculturalism. The problem with this issue is “not accepting” one’s norm always turns out to be negative.

Btw, sorry if I dance around, but I guess what I wanted to say is that culture of a specific area should be respected, whatever is going to be integrated should be willingly adopted by the people living on that location, and not because it was insisted by the newcomers—which should be applied to all. As you said “If the saying "when in Rome, do as the Romans do" applies to us in their countries, why can it not apply to them in our countries?”; 11/13/11 9:30 PM
kitsune and neko said...: "Also, because veiling has been deeply embedded into ones worldview, once it has been removed then apparently one’s worldview will be threatened as well"

That still doesn't make me feel less scared of someone whose face I can't see or whose culture in general is generally violent towards women in every aspect and uses religion -hence illogical reasons- to establish rules and set out wars. You can say my worldview is threatened as well by a veil.

"it plays an integral role for self-worth and acceptance"

How could possibly sth that denotes the opposite of self-worth make them feel worthy? Especially if they've come at contact with another culture that is grounded much more on reason and women's independency. You said yourself it's possible, yet that doesn't make the fact more logical or even suspicious. Plus anchoring and identifying your whole identity with a single cloth (that carries all those bad nuancies mentioned above) means that the person is weak, doesn't value herself much and thus why should I? One may feel compassionate towards someone who is weak but in no way can one feel awe and deep respect - what's there to admire?

If we focus on the acceptance part then we talk about an internalised oppression posed on the community according to tradition.

Habit isn't an excuse either. When there's no real meaning or joy behind it then it becomes a neurosis or infatuation.

Perhaps my allusion isn't a very good one, but just imagine the post-war Germans insisting of keeping the svastika by any means, just because they feel united this way...(Don't forget that svastika was once a symbol of peace).

"The problem with this issue is “not accepting” one’s norm always turns out to be negative. "

Could you please elaborate? I'm afraid I got lost somewhere and don't get what you want to say.

I'll make another post to gather more articles and videos that proove my point and my feelings. That doesn't mean that I understand these complexities better. Maybe my view is simplistic, but I feel the need to make it clear out there and make more people aware about women's rights and issues like the above.; 11/14/11 12:31 PM
snippettee said...: “That still doesn't make me feel less scared of someone whose face I can't see or whose culture in general is generally violent towards women in every aspect and uses religion -hence illogical reasons- to establish rules and set out wars. You can say my worldview is threatened as well by a veil.”

I truly understand your point. That’s why I said if they’re going to get out of their country they should obey the customs of what other countries set. They should adopt and respect other cultures as well.

“How could possibly sth that denotes the opposite of self-worth make them feel worthy? Especially if they've come at contact with another culture that is grounded much more on reason and women's independency.”

This is purely subjective. It’s like insisting your reasoning and idea of feminism is much superior than theirs.

“You said yourself it's possible, yet that doesn't make the fact more logical or even suspicious. Plus anchoring and identifying your whole identity with a single cloth (that carries all those bad nuancies mentioned above) means that the person is weak, doesn't value herself much and thus why should I?”

What I wanted to convey on my comment is we shouldn’t generalize. It’s arguable that veiling might be a form of oppression but not for everybody. There are Muslim women who aren’t forced by their families to veil but still decided to wear them because for them it’s part of the identity that they would like to convey and is a form of membership on their community. Peace and acceptance will on begin within ourselves.

“means that the person is weak, doesn't value herself much and thus why should I? One may feel compassionate towards someone who is weak but in no way can one feel awe and deep respect - what's there to admire?”

I don’t think this is right and it’s harsh. Muslims have different sects who communicate the value of veiling differently (just like Christians having so many denominations). I believe before coming up with such generalization like this you should have a clear foundation of what it’s like to be a Muslim and how different kinds of Muslim perceive veiling. (Don’t just look at one side of the coin, try to flip the other side).

“Habit isn't an excuse either. When there's no real meaning or joy behind it then it becomes a neurosis or infatuation.”

Please take note that habit is different from tradition. Habit is just a mere routine while tradition has deep-seated historicity and meaning. How can you say there’s no real meaning or joy, if you’re not a Muslim? (I’m just assuming you’re not, forgive me if I’m wrong)

"The problem with this issue is “not accepting” one’s norm always turns out to be negative. "
I’m talking about how I don’t agree with fully integrating different kinds of culture in a multicultural setting. The problem with multicultural countries is they’re accepting everything in the expense of losing the true identity of that location.

Anyway, I guess for me, if Muslims want acceptance in other countries, then Muslim countries should also accept the tradition of their visitors. If they want their rules to be obeyed in their nation, then they should also comply with the rules of other nations as visitors.

I guess we have parallel thoughts about this issue; however I can sense that you’re less accepting because of your generalizations. Also, please take note that there’s no such thing as superior ideology.

(I apologize if my explanation isn’t clear. I’m feeling quite woozy.); 11/15/11 4:57 AM
kitsune and neko said...: Thanks for the long reply. No, your explanation is quite clear and no, I'm not a Muslim and indeed I may overgeneralize. I'll most certainly search more about the topic. Yet the reason for my rigity lies in the atrocities of this religion in comparison to others. Imprisoning and much more honour killing of women for really petty or unfair reasons are things that I can't forgive. Genital mutilation in some muslim sects is simply horrid and inacceptable.

Of course I think that western culture that accepts and encourages the concept of independency of women are superior - to my eyes at least. There was a time when I really thought that all opionions and cultures are equal, but in reality I don't think so. Can you deny that democracy is better than dictatorship? Can you say that the above crimes are 'civilised' and a good and righted treatment of any human being?

And to be honest, my religion thesis is sth between atheism and agnosticism. I'm equally harsh with the crimes of Christianity as well, like pedophilic incidents within the Church and the horrid religious camps that are not only absurd (let's hip hop for Jesus etc...) but also very dangerous and hostile towards other sexualities. I'm also very critical with the concept of religion itself. I recognize the artistic flourish it brought through the ages as well as the help in crisis, yet I can't see it less than a manipulative institution that is lead by human beings hungry for power (most of the times). It's pretty clear to me that at least hard-core believers are people that are unable to grieve and overcome the difficulties of life standing on their own two feet. They are in a constant fear of death, postpone they joy of their lives, since there'll be a better life near God, many times hide their hate and incapability to understand other people behind their religion and justify their unreasonable opinion through it. They have the need to be dictatated what to do, to obey to someone or something invisible to feel good about themselves, hence they are really not masters of themselves- they are 'slaves'. I'll refrain from characterization but you can get that I walk along the lines of 'Imagine' of John Lennon (about the 'no religion' part).

More about your points and questions:
"It’s like insisting your reasoning and idea of feminism is much superior than theirs"
Are they are feminist in any possible sense?

"you should have a clear foundation of what it’s like to be a Muslim"
I'll try in the extend it's possible, because I wouldn't want ever to become one (Muslim) to 'understand'.

"Please take note that habit is different from tradition."
Yes I understand it. Yet don't those two relate? Don't a tradition/custom start from the normalization and repetition from generation to generation of a habit?

"How can you say there’s no real meaning or joy [...]"
I wasn't clear enough here. My fault. Of course there is a meaning otherwise it wouldn't become tradition, something respected from a community. But the meaning I speak of is meant in rational terms. Thus the 'true' joy comes from doing something rationally meaningful. Would you do something that would hurt you or dimish you and be happy about it? Unless we talk about someone who is a masochist or his perception of what's blissful and what's painful is corrupted due to mental or external reasons...

I'm sorry if I sound too mean, but you'll sympathize with me when I post more on the news and facts I've recently read about.

P.S.: Yes, in general we agree. I'm more absolute in my perspective. Not so lenient, because I can't be tolerant to intolerance and the animalistic treatment of women. And generally I'm not that much annoyed by a headcover. But clothes that (almost) totally cover the face and body of a woman stir strong negative feelings in me.; 11/15/11 1:40 PM
snippettee said...: Yes, I'm more lenient that you, I guess. Tbh, there's a point where I was just like you when talking about this issue...

Anyways, here is a good read which influenced me on my understanding about this topic.
http://www.smi.uib.no/seminars/Pensum/Abu-Lughod.pdf; 11/18/11 5:28 AM
kitsune and neko said...: thx for the link. I'll read it through. I'm late with a new post because I'm working on an assignment now, so it might take me a little longer... but I searched a bit the writer of the article you linked me and rushed through some other links, too. I won't elaborate here but I can see that one of her main points is the wish of these women to be 'near God', be 'modest' and 'protected' by family... I understand that West isn't a 'holy' place for women and that I'm not the one to decide if one wants to commit suicide for example in the name of his/her belief, yet those choices are quite miserable in my eyes, since I already stated my disgust for religion and the dependent feeling protection gives birth to.

More later. I'll try bringing up some arguments against the lady, if she can't convince me.

P.S.: I'm aware of the prejudiced image of the media, yet some news can't be simply trash to feed (Christian) hate. I'll note again that I'm no Christian and I don't call upon my 'superior' god to impose change.; 11/18/11 12:10 PM

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That moment -as if a miracle has just happened- when the female body brings forth complex and subtle curves, when light and shadow duel, when meat and bones dance in competition... in that moment, I wonder, "what in the world was I looking at before?"

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When different cultures collide and questions are born: the issue of the muslim veil

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the beautiful world

That moment -as if a miracle has just happened- when the female body brings forth complex and subtle curves, when light and shadow duel, when meat and bones dance in competition... in that moment, I wonder, "what in the world was I looking at before?"

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When different cultures collide and questions are born: the issue of the muslim veil

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